Topolanszky on Gyurcsany, Zuschlag and Ocsovai

In Jozsef Debreczeni's book, Ferenc Gyurcsany reminisces about his time running the ministry for youth and sport, calling his deputy state secretary for drug affairs, Akos Topolanszky, as a "first-class professional and honest public servant." He regrets his dismissal from the ministry in October 2003, for which he blames his then administrative state secretary. Topolanszky, who is now deputy director of the National Drug Prevention Institute, now speaks about the informal hierarchy inside his old ministry, about orders that could not be disobeyed and the way political decisions influence the distribution of public subsidies. He also addresses the real reasons for his dismissal.

Akos Topolanszky

hvg.hu: The ministry where you were deputy state secretary has been mentioned in connection with the Zuschlag affair.
A.T.: I don't know the precise details of the Zuschlag affair, so I won't speak about it: it relates to the youth department's money. It's more important to talk about the way politics relates to the public sector and the way government money is distributed. In democracies that are weak from within, and Hungary is one of those, politics keeps the public sector and the people who are meant to defend it, under heavy pressure. Under the law, deputy state secretaries are not political actors: I swore to serve the interests of the country, ignoring any party political considerations. The civil service law expressly forbids political allegiance. (Since then, deputy state secretaries have been replaced by specialist state secretaries, who are more political - which means their subservience has grown). In a sense, the political sphere commissions the public sphere, setting out the direction of the government's policies. But politicians should never be allowed to serve current party interests by giving direct instructions to civil servants. This kind of situation involving the distribution of national and EU funds just incubates corruption. That's unacceptable.

hvg.hu: So what were the hierarchical relations in the former Ministry for Children, Youth and Sport? Who were the main actors?
A.T.: I knew Tamas Ocsovai, who was also a deputy state secretary, very well. I spoke to him a lot and knew what his problems were. He came from a party political background, and was probably chosen for that reason - a political puppet was needed for that post. I knew he didn't have a clear mandate, and I also knew that he couldn't refuse to act on technical grounds if he was asked to do something. Attila Mesterhazy was a key figure. He was the political state secretary, and he was very aggressive with Ocsovai, telling him exactly what the political expectations were. The ministry was overseen by the parliamentary youth and sport committee, of which Janos Zuschlag and every one of his famous accomplices were members. Ocsovai was responsible for youth policy, meaning he had to fight Zuschlag almost every day. I had no real contact with Zuschlag at all - I just remember him from hearings of the parliamentary committee. He behaved like some kind of political hack. The others were all there, including Gergey Arato, Istvan Ujhelyi and Peter Racz, the president of the Pioneer Organisation. Racz was in legal difficulties - the court had already convicted him for his dealings relating to the Csilleberc pioneer camp. These people were always around Hold utca, surrounding Gyorgy Szilvasy, who was administrative state secretary in the ministry at the time, and Gyurcsany, the minister. Ocsovai carried out not just the minister's orders, but those of the Socialist Party's youth policy section as well, because they appeared as patrons. They tried to push me into a corner as well, questioning my decisions via the political leadership, especially when it came to handing out drug prevention grants. They always accused me of directing grants away from cities and regions that didn't vote for the Socialists. Mesterhazy overstepped the mark here, and did so in a very ugly way. It's a harsh punishment for him that as deputy party group leader he has to defend a prime minister every day with whom he fought major battles in the ministry because they had very different views. Maybe he's got to like his boss since those days.

hvg.hu: Did you also get direct political orders?
A.T.: My situation was very particular in the ministry, which was run first by Gyorgy Janosi, then by Gyurcsany. They knew I wouldn't accept party political orders and that I would preserve my integrity. But there was heavy pressure, and I have a few awkward situations on my conscience. There were areas where the political pressure was industrial in scale. I can perhaps be proud that, despite making a few compromises, I managed to steer a course through those years. I have to apologise for those small compromises, though.

hvg.hu: Give examples of that political pressure.
A.T.: I can think of many examples. Drugs policy was a very particular area, one less subject to political influence than the sport and youth policy areas, which involve a huge network of organisations. But I was faced with requests that were difficult to turn down. There were times when Mesterhazy shouted at me. I remember being asked to pass Ft4m to Tamas Gyarfas, one of the most influential figures in the Hungarian media. His company had applied for many grants, and continues to apply for them, to various ministries, for a wide range of projects. It was "appropriate" to give him money, as everyone knew. They applied for a grant to put together a drug prevention television show. In these cases, a committee of experts assessed the applications, and I - in accordance with my principles - passed this list on unchanged to the political leadership for signing. The committee decided that Gyarfas's application was unsatisfactory, and they scrapped it. When the decision was made public, Gyurcsany phone me and said it was awkward for him, since Gyarfas had denounced me in a handwritten letter of several pages, claiming he had not received the sum he was entitled to. In the end, as I understand it, Gyarfas got the money, after my dismissal. I was still unwilling to pay it, but Edina Gabor, my successor, was unable to turn down a request from the minister.

When Janosi was minister, Szilvasy, who was administrative state secretary, introduced administrative double checking. That was when the "pre-jury" institution was introduced to the sport ministry. The pre-selection was carried out by Szilvasy's closest colleagues, former officials of the Pioneer Organisation, people he takes with him wherever he goes. Right now, they're working on the development of the new government quarter. The two emblematic figures are Ferenc Rakosi and Tibor Alacs, who were already the best-paid political advisers in the ministry. Before a grant contract had been signed, when the proposal was just being development, they would pre-empt the expert committee's decision. It was up to them to decide whether a grant application should even be reviewed or whether it should immediately be dismissed.