Akos Topolanszky

hvg.hu: The ministry where you were deputy state secretary has been mentioned in connection with the Zuschlag affair.
A.T.: I don't know the precise details of the Zuschlag affair, so I won't speak about it: it relates to the youth department's money. It's more important to talk about the way politics relates to the public sector and the way government money is distributed. In democracies that are weak from within, and Hungary is one of those, politics keeps the public sector and the people who are meant to defend it, under heavy pressure. Under the law, deputy state secretaries are not political actors: I swore to serve the interests of the country, ignoring any party political considerations. The civil service law expressly forbids political allegiance. (Since then, deputy state secretaries have been replaced by specialist state secretaries, who are more political - which means their subservience has grown). In a sense, the political sphere commissions the public sphere, setting out the direction of the government's policies. But politicians should never be allowed to serve current party interests by giving direct instructions to civil servants. This kind of situation involving the distribution of national and EU funds just incubates corruption. That's unacceptable.

hvg.hu: So what were the hierarchical relations in the former Ministry for Children, Youth and Sport? Who were the main actors?
A.T.: I knew Tamas Ocsovai, who was also a deputy state secretary, very well. I spoke to him a lot and knew what his problems were. He came from a party political background, and was probably chosen for that reason - a political puppet was needed for that post. I knew he didn't have a clear mandate, and I also knew that he couldn't refuse to act on technical grounds if he was asked to do something. Attila Mesterhazy was a key figure. He was the political state secretary, and he was very aggressive with Ocsovai, telling him exactly what the political expectations were. The ministry was overseen by the parliamentary youth and sport committee, of which Janos Zuschlag and every one of his famous accomplices were members. Ocsovai was responsible for youth policy, meaning he had to fight Zuschlag almost every day. I had no real contact with Zuschlag at all - I just remember him from hearings of the parliamentary committee. He behaved like some kind of political hack. The others were all there, including Gergey Arato, Istvan Ujhelyi and Peter Racz, the president of the Pioneer Organisation. Racz was in legal difficulties - the court had already convicted him for his dealings relating to the Csilleberc pioneer camp. These people were always around Hold utca, surrounding Gyorgy Szilvasy, who was administrative state secretary in the ministry at the time, and Gyurcsany, the minister. Ocsovai carried out not just the minister's orders, but those of the Socialist Party's youth policy section as well, because they appeared as patrons. They tried to push me into a corner as well, questioning my decisions via the political leadership, especially when it came to handing out drug prevention grants. They always accused me of directing grants away from cities and regions that didn't vote for the Socialists. Mesterhazy overstepped the mark here, and did so in a very ugly way. It's a harsh punishment for him that as deputy party group leader he has to defend a prime minister every day with whom he fought major battles in the ministry because they had very different views. Maybe he's got to like his boss since those days.

hvg.hu: Did you also get direct political orders?
A.T.: My situation was very particular in the ministry, which was run first by Gyorgy Janosi, then by Gyurcsany. They knew I wouldn't accept party political orders and that I would preserve my integrity. But there was heavy pressure, and I have a few awkward situations on my conscience. There were areas where the political pressure was industrial in scale. I can perhaps be proud that, despite making a few compromises, I managed to steer a course through those years. I have to apologise for those small compromises, though.

hvg.hu: Give examples of that political pressure.
A.T.: I can think of many examples. Drugs policy was a very particular area, one less subject to political influence than the sport and youth policy areas, which involve a huge network of organisations. But I was faced with requests that were difficult to turn down. There were times when Mesterhazy shouted at me. I remember being asked to pass Ft4m to Tamas Gyarfas, one of the most influential figures in the Hungarian media. His company had applied for many grants, and continues to apply for them, to various ministries, for a wide range of projects. It was "appropriate" to give him money, as everyone knew. They applied for a grant to put together a drug prevention television show. In these cases, a committee of experts assessed the applications, and I - in accordance with my principles - passed this list on unchanged to the political leadership for signing. The committee decided that Gyarfas's application was unsatisfactory, and they scrapped it. When the decision was made public, Gyurcsany phone me and said it was awkward for him, since Gyarfas had denounced me in a handwritten letter of several pages, claiming he had not received the sum he was entitled to. In the end, as I understand it, Gyarfas got the money, after my dismissal. I was still unwilling to pay it, but Edina Gabor, my successor, was unable to turn down a request from the minister.

When Janosi was minister, Szilvasy, who was administrative state secretary, introduced administrative double checking. That was when the "pre-jury" institution was introduced to the sport ministry. The pre-selection was carried out by Szilvasy's closest colleagues, former officials of the Pioneer Organisation, people he takes with him wherever he goes. Right now, they're working on the development of the new government quarter. The two emblematic figures are Ferenc Rakosi and Tibor Alacs, who were already the best-paid political advisers in the ministry. Before a grant contract had been signed, when the proposal was just being development, they would pre-empt the expert committee's decision. It was up to them to decide whether a grant application should even be reviewed or whether it should immediately be dismissed.

© Túry Gergely

hvg.hu: How was Gyurcsany welcomed when he reached the top of the ministry?
A.T.: He took office in March 2003, and we spoke a lot after that. He arrived with new ideas, trying to make the ministry more efficient. He held review meetings every day, which was good for information flow. He emphasised that political orders had to be brought under control, that lobbyists had to be kept away. "We're deciding on public money. Party politics has no role to play," he said. Gyurcsany, who already had illusions about uniting the nation, aimed to be a kind of intermediary between the Socialists and Fidesz. He spoke about this openly. He said the performance of public administration should be measured, and that the leaders should be the best of 10m Hungarians. This inspired us, the civil servants. His will seemed genuine. That was when a conflict erupted between Gyurcsany and Mesterhazy, who was clearly a party political figure. Things changed quickly. Gyurcsany repositioned himself, making fewer attempts to rein in political demands. From the end of 2003, he was already planning for his prime ministership, more or less leaving the ministry to itself.

hvg.hu: So Gyurcsany really was serious about cleaning out the stable of politics for a while?
A.T.: There's no question that the future PM was someone with the intellectual ability to practice democracy. He could have been a principled democrat or even a historic figure. Sadly, things went in another direction.

hvg.hu: How did you end up being dismissed from the ministry?
A.T.: There were political reasons for my departure. I'm glad that experts in my field protested against my dismissal, demanding that the minister rethink. So it wasn't professional failings. I spent a whole day discussing the matter with Gyurcsany, who was looking for an escape route. He came up with an administrative argument, which he repeats in the Debreczeni book, saying he left the decision to Andras Benedek, who became administrative state secretary after Szilvasy. I said: "Look, Feri, a democrat can two do things in this situation. One, he can accept the decision, if it was reached legally. That's what I do. The other possibility is to confront it, accept that he has made a bad choice, and rethink it." He answered that he couldn't change the decision.

He also said that he wanted to open the job of deputy state secretary up for public applications to find the best people. He assured me that he was perfectly happy with my professionalism, so he encouraged me to reapply for my own job. He mentioned as an aside that he would be happy to get rid of the other two state secretaries, Ocsovai in particular. Yet, when the applications had been assessed, Ocsovai stayed, and I left. I was told later that the minister was one of those who had wanted my departure. Of course, Gyurcsany didn't want to get into a conflict with the other people in the ministry, since he was preparing to become prime minister, and the public application process gave them a chance to get rid of me. In any case, none of the promises made to the profession was kept.

hvg.hu: How do you mean?
A.T.: If I ever get the chance, I'll ask him why, once he became prime minister, he allowed the department to suffer serious losses in the following budget. The sport department got 20 to 25 per cent less in 2005 than in 2004, while the youth department lost more than 30 per cent, and the drug-prevention department more than 50 per cent. None of them has recovered. As prime minister, Gyurcsany took his old ministry to pieces. A small fraction of the old guard is trying to deal with this in the successor ministry. Youth and drugs affairs are being dealt with at a much lower level. You can imagine the consequences.

There's much talk about assessing the performance of public administration. I would also be keen on fact-based assessment systems. But you need the process to be independent of the decision-takers. Gyurcsany has so damaged his old ministry that no matter what measurement system you use, it's deeply in the red.


János Pelle